[mdphd] Re: Urgent MD/PhD program

[Alan Blayney]

Hi Andras,

I just want to offer some quick thoughts on the rationale presented by Dr.
Lesperance for why this change is being advanced.

I believe we should reject the premise that, "All [students who take a year
or two (or more) off between the pre-clinical and clinical years] should
have the same chance to express their preferences for certain schedules as
other students." Fairness does not always mean treating everyone exactly
the same way; it means treating everyone equitably. As Dr. Lesperance is
well aware, MD/PhD programs require students sacrifice 4-5 years on our
path to becoming practicing professionals. We do this in order to develop
skills that will allows us to make unique contributions to healthcare. The
program offers incentives in line with the importance of this training to
both Upstate and the larger health system, as well as to balance the
sacrifice we make to get it. Our priority during track selection is part of
the deal we were offered by the medical school. It's a small part of the
deal, but it's incredibly valuable to us. I will defer to our alumni on
elaborating the reasons that this is such a high priority.

I agree with Dr. Lesperance that there are arguments to made in favour of
offering the same treatment to other students who do not progress directly
from MS2 to MS3, however those arguments need to be made on their own
merits. It wouldn't be unreasonable to consider offering a similar perk as
a way of encouraging more students to pursue an MD/MPH; it's simply a
question of how much CoM values this type of training, and how much these
trainees would value the accommodation. Similarly, in the case of
individuals who take time off due to academic challenges during the
pre-clinical years, offering preference in track selection may be an
appropriate way of supporting these vulnerable students as they progress in
their training; however, that is a separate discussion that I will leave to
student affairs. I'm all for those conversations happening, but they have
no bearing on the topic at hand.

Thank you for your and Dr. Kotula's energetic support in this.

Best,
~   Alan Blayney

MD/PhD Candidate, Loh Lab
Biochemistry and Molecular Biology, SUNY Upstate Medical University

>
On Thu, Mar 12, 2020 at 8:01 AM Andras Perl <PERLA at upstate.edu> wrote:

> Dear Leann:
>
> I understand the urgency around the coronavirus, which should take
> precedence.
>
> Certainly, we can delay this to the point that it should not affect MD/PhD
> students returning to medical school next May.
> We have spoken with all students last night. They are all very concerned
> about the policy change which they fill would adverse affect their career
> development.
>
> Thank you for your consideration.
>
> Andras
> >>> Leann Lesperance <lesperal at upstate.edu> 3/11/2020 8:30 PM >>>
> Your students already were able to pick their schedules for this year.
> Given the current situation with which we are dealing, I need to push a
> meeting with you off for a while.
>
> Thanks for your understanding.
>
> Leann
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Mar 11, 2020, at 20:02, Leszek Kotula <KotulaL at upstate.edu> wrote:
>
> 
> Hello Leann,
> Thank you for your explanations.
> I do agree with Andras that we should meet and discuss the matter.
>
> Could we please meet in the nearest future?
>
> Thank you!
>
> Best regards,
> Leszke
>
>
> >>> Leann Lesperance 3/9/2020 8:26 PM >>>
> Hello Leszek,
>
> I appreciate Scott asking about this and bringing it to your attention.
>
> I didn't accurately explain the situation at today's MCAEC meeting.
>
> First, I misspoke about curriculum committee. You are a representative to
> the committee but it wouldn't have mattered because the policy was not
> discussed at curriculum committee. It is not a curriculum committee policy.
> It is from the registrar's office and student affairs. The registrar's
> office asked for this change and the UME office supported it.  I am copying
> Jennifer Martin Tse to let her know of the concerns raised today.
>
> Second, I didn't explain the reason for the change. Every year, we have
> students who take a year or two (or more) off between the pre-clinical and
> clinical years - some who are formally enrolled in the MD/PhD program, and
> others for different reasons. All of these students should have the same
> chance to express their preferences for certain schedules as other
> students. These preferences will be taken into consideration when the
> schedules are assigned.
>
> If any students are concerned about their clinical skills having atrophied
> during the time off, we can arrange for a clinical skills refresher
> boot-camp prior to the first clerkship. Arguably this is something we
> should offer to all students returning from a "gap" year or two or four
> (whether they ask for it or not). The clerkships, including IM, expect
> students to be at a certain level with their clinical skills. Students who
> have been away may find that their preceptors evaluate them more harshly if
> they are re-learning skills during the first weeks of their first rotation.
> I will look into planning this for the incoming class. I think there should
> be room for a session during orientation.
>
> Note that this change (to MD/PhD students following the same selection
> procedure as all students other than RMED - who have no choice) is planned
> to take effect next year.
>
> I hope this helps to clear up some of the confusion from earlier today.
> Please feel free to contact Jennifer or me with any further questions.
>
> Leann
>
> >>> Leszek Kotula 3/9/2020 2:21 PM >>>
> Thank you Scott!
> Best,
> Leszek
>
> >>> Scott Blystone 3/9/2020 2:07 PM >>>
>
> I only felt it my responsibility to check awareness of this policy
> change.  Now that the program directors are informed and in contact with
> Dr. Lesperance, I think it best if I bow out here.  I wish you all a
> suitable resolution of interests.
>
>
> Scott D. Blystone, Ph.D.
> Associate Professor of Cell & Developmental Biology
> SUNY Upstate Medical University
> 750 East Adams
> Syracuse, NY 13210
> TEL (315) 464-8512
> FAX (315) 464-8535
> Cell (315) 256-3083
>
>
> >>> Leszek Kotula 3/9/2020 2:05 PM >>>
> Thank you Scott so much!
>
> Our MD/PhD program coordinator attended the meeting in the past. New hire,
> Tanner Thompson just started last month.
>
> What was the rationale beyond the proposing the change?
> The flexibility supported MD/PhD students getting back to clinical years
> after a spending 4 years doing research for their PhD degree!
>
>
> Thanks,
> Leszek
>
>
>
> >>> Andras Perl 3/9/2020 1:21 PM >>>
> Thank you Scott.
> That is good news from our persopective.
> We would of course attend, especially if the policy affects the Program.
> I copy dr. Lesperance so she can share the rationale.
> Andras
>
> >>> Scott Blystone 3/9/2020 1:18 PM >>>
> Leann Lesperance, representing curriculum, informed me at the
> MCAEC meeting that the MD/PhD program rep to the curriculum cmte does not
> attend, which may be why you were unaware.
>
> After some discussion, it was unclear why this aspect of the policy was
> being changed.  It did not seem like it was understood there was a
> rationale for allowing the 3rd yr reentry students have first choice.
>
> Dr. Lesperance said she would reach out to the program to consult.
>
> MCAEC did not endorse the policy change as written.
>
> Regards,
>
>
> Scott D. Blystone, Ph.D.
> Associate Professor of Cell & Developmental Biology
> SUNY Upstate Medical University
> 750 East Adams
> Syracuse, NY 13210
> TEL (315) 464-8512
> FAX (315) 464-8535
> Cell (315) 256-3083
>
>
> BODY P { MARGIN: 0px }
> >>> Andras Perl 3/9/2020 8:24 AM >>>
> Thank you Scott for bringing this to our attention.
>
> I don't recollect having been formally asked or informed about this. Along
> the grapevine, I heard from students  returning to medical school this May
> that some changes were contemplated.
>
> Hi Lisa: since you sent out this memo, can you provide additional info and
> the rationale behind this.
>
> I also copy Steve since he is on the committee and may have some
> procedural insight.
>
> Thank you.
>
> Andras
>
>
>
>
>
> >>> Scott Blystone 03/09/20 7:54 AM >>>
> The MCAEC has been asked to approve the attached document for Dean Chen's
> signature, thus changing Upstate policy.  This document eliminates the
> option for MD/PhD students to have preference in selection of clinical
> tracks.
>
> Were you aware of this change and do you support it?
>
> This vote is at noon today, please respond ASAP.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Scott D. Blystone, Ph.D.
> Associate Professor of Cell & Developmental Biology
> SUNY Upstate Medical University
> 750 East Adams
> Syracuse, NY 13210
> TEL (315) 464-8512
> FAX (315) 464-8535
> Cell (315) 256-3083
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Leszek Kotula <kotulal at upstate.edu>
> To: Liam Coyne <CoyneL at upstate.edu>
> Cc: Andras Perl <PERLA at upstate.edu>
> Bcc:
> Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 21:12:47 -0400
> Subject: Re: Urgent MD/PhD program
> Thank you Liam!
>
> Best regards,
> Leszek
>
> On Mar 11, 2020, at 9:07 PM, Liam Coyne <CoyneL at upstate.edu> wrote:
>
> Thanks for this. It’s hardly understandable in my opinion. There’s a very
> clear distinction between taking one year off (two max) for MPH, and
> getting your PhD for four (or five in my case) years. And wouldn’t a better
> solution be to simply allow the MPH students to choose their track too?
>
> And to top it all off there was never any MD/PhD program representation?
> All the more reason for a fully funded MD/PhD coordinator position.
>
> I will talk to other students and former students tonight and email Dean
> White (and CC you guys) tomorrow.
>
> Liam
>
> On Mar 11, 2020, at 8:04 PM, Leszek Kotula <KotulaL at upstate.edu> wrote:
>
> 
>
> FYI -  let me know what you think - Leszek
>
> >>> Leszek Kotula 3/11/2020 8:02 PM >>>
>
> Hello Leann,
>
> Thank you for your explanations.
>
> I do agree with Andras that we should meet and discuss the matter.
>
>
> Could we please meet in the nearest future?
>
>
> Thank you!
>
>
> Best regards,
>
> Leszke
>
>
>
> >>> Leann Lesperance 3/9/2020 8:26 PM >>>
>
> Hello Leszek,
>
>
> I appreciate Scott asking about this and bringing it to your attention.
>
>
> I didn't accurately explain the situation at today's MCAEC meeting.
>
>
> First, I misspoke about curriculum committee. You are a representative to
> the committee but it wouldn't have mattered because the policy was not
> discussed at curriculum committee. It is not a curriculum committee policy.
> It is from the registrar's office and student affairs. The registrar's
> office asked for this change and the UME office supported it.  I am copying
> Jennifer Martin Tse to let her know of the concerns raised today.
>
>
> Second, I didn't explain the reason for the change. Every year, we have
> students who take a year or two (or more) off between the pre-clinical and
> clinical years - some who are formally enrolled in the MD/PhD program, and
> others for different reasons. All of these students should have the same
> chance to express their preferences for certain schedules as other
> students. These preferences will be taken into consideration when the
> schedules are assigned.
>
>
> If any students are concerned about their clinical skills having atrophied
> during the time off, we can arrange for a clinical skills refresher
> boot-camp prior to the first clerkship. Arguably this is something we
> should offer to all students returning from a "gap" year or two or four
> (whether they ask for it or not). The clerkships, including IM, expect
> students to be at a certain level with their clinical skills. Students who
> have been away may find that their preceptors evaluate them more harshly if
> they are re-learning skills during the first weeks of their first rotation.
> I will look into planning this for the incoming class. I think there should
> be room for a session during orientation.
>
>
> Note that this change (to MD/PhD students following the same selection
> procedure as all students other than RMED - who have no choice) is planned
> to take effect next year.
>
>
> I hope this helps to clear up some of the confusion from earlier today.
> Please feel free to contact Jennifer or me with any further questions.
>
>
> Leann
>
>
> >>> Leszek Kotula 3/9/2020 2:21 PM >>>
>
> Thank you Scott!
>
> Best,
>
> Leszek
>
> >>> Scott Blystone 3/9/2020 2:07 PM >>>
>
>
> I only felt it my responsibility to check awareness of this policy
> change.  Now that the program directors are informed and in contact with
> Dr. Lesperance, I think it best if I bow out here.  I wish you all a
> suitable resolution of interests.
>
>
>
> Scott D. Blystone, Ph.D.
> Associate Professor of Cell & Developmental Biology
> SUNY Upstate Medical University
> 750 East Adams
> Syracuse, NY 13210
> TEL (315) 464-8512
> FAX (315) 464-8535
> Cell (315) 256-3083
>
>
>
> >>> Leszek Kotula 3/9/2020 2:05 PM >>>
>
> Thank you Scott so much!
>
>
> Our MD/PhD program coordinator attended the meeting in the past. New hire,
> Tanner Thompson just started last month.
>
>
> What was the rationale beyond the proposing the change?
>
> The flexibility supported MD/PhD students getting back to clinical years
> after a spending 4 years doing research for their PhD degree!
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Leszek
>
>
>
>
> >>> Andras Perl 3/9/2020 1:21 PM >>>
>
> Thank you Scott.
>
> That is good news from our persopective.
>
> We would of course attend, especially if the policy affects the Program.
>
> I copy dr. Lesperance so she can share the rationale.
>
> Andras
>
>
>
> >>> Scott Blystone 3/9/2020 1:18 PM >>>
>
> Leann Lesperance, representing curriculum, informed me at the
> MCAEC meeting that the MD/PhD program rep to the curriculum cmte does not
> attend, which may be why you were unaware.
>
>
> After some discussion, it was unclear why this aspect of the policy was
> being changed.  It did not seem like it was understood there was a
> rationale for allowing the 3rd yr reentry students have first choice.
>
>
> Dr. Lesperance said she would reach out to the program to consult.
>
>
> MCAEC did not endorse the policy change as written.
>
>
> Regards,
>
>
>
> Scott D. Blystone, Ph.D.
> Associate Professor of Cell & Developmental Biology
> SUNY Upstate Medical University
> 750 East Adams
> Syracuse, NY 13210
> TEL (315) 464-8512
> FAX (315) 464-8535
> Cell (315) 256-3083
>
>
>
> BODY P { MARGIN: 0px }
>
> >>> Andras Perl 3/9/2020 8:24 AM >>>
>
> Thank you Scott for bringing this to our attention.
>
>
> I don't recollect having been formally asked or informed about this. Along
> the grapevine, I heard from students  returning to medical school this May
> that some changes were contemplated.
>
>
> Hi Lisa: since you sent out this memo, can you provide additional info and
> the rationale behind this.
>
>
> I also copy Steve since he is on the committee and may have some
> procedural insight.
>
>
> Thank you.
>
>
> Andras
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >>> Scott Blystone 03/09/20 7:54 AM >>>
>
> The MCAEC has been asked to approve the attached document for Dean Chen's
> signature, thus changing Upstate policy.  This document eliminates the
> option for MD/PhD students to have preference in selection of clinical
> tracks.
>
>
> Were you aware of this change and do you support it?
>
>
> This vote is at noon today, please respond ASAP.
>
>
> Thanks.
>
>
> Scott D. Blystone, Ph.D.
> Associate Professor of Cell & Developmental Biology
> SUNY Upstate Medical University
> 750 East Adams
> Syracuse, NY 13210
> TEL (315) 464-8512
> FAX (315) 464-8535
> Cell (315) 256-3083
>
>
>
>
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